Elendili - Przyjaciele Elfów

[Galadhorn]

Here we will discuss languages, phrases, lyrics and inscriptions used in the LotR movie trylogy. First visit Gwaith-i-Phethdain: Movie, than ask your questions or provide us with your opinions and ideas.

[Lothenon]

Suil,

back in december I found a picture from the Return Of The King movie, that shows some Elvish book (I wrote it to you, Galadhorn, but it seems you never got my mail).
It seems to be written in English, using the Mode of Beleriand, and I think I can decipher:

on the left:

...or
...Erech
...and hear
...ls ringing
...rn bet. wio
...from the greng
...forgotten people
...h[] ngom(??) the
...[][]r.
...[] north wall(?) he can need
...[]rth[](?) [][][] he [][]l pass the

below the picture:

the northern entrance to
the paths of the dead

I thought this might be interesting.

[Galadhorn]

I am very glad Lothenon has joined our forum. It means we will have interesting linguistic discussions here .

I should add this picture and transcription to my collection of the movie inscriptions by D. Reeve at http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_otherinscr.htm The picture of the Gate of the Death is very beautiful .

Thanks a lot, Lothenon.

[Adaneth]

I suppose I found the text from which the tengwar inscription on the left side of the book comes:

Cytat:

at the Stone of Erech they shall stand again and hear there a horn in the hills ringing Whose shall the horn be? Who shall call them from the grey twilight, the forgotten people? The heir of him to whom the oath they swore. From the North he shall come, need shall drive him: he shall pass the Door to the Paths of the Dead.

This is a quote from Malbeth the Seer, recalled by Aragorn before he took the Path of the Dead.
It's nice to know that they use original texts, not just draw a page of strange-looking signs hoping that no one will read them anyway...

[Lothenon]

Thanks again for the kind words, Galadhorn

And thanks to you, Adaneth, this makes much more sense. It now seems to me that what I thought to be bet is in fact be?, with the tengwa for question-mark. I find it interesting (though absolutely beyond any logic, that it seems as if ńwalmë had been used for hw, which explains wio >> who and ngom >> whom. Besides this ńoldo is used for consonantal y in grey.
In swore I still don't see what is used for w, but the rest seems to read silme-???-óre-rómen (with nuntixë).
Where the original has "...he shall come" Reeve's text reads shall he come, where hwesta is used for sh.
Very unsystematically Why oh why didn't he just use the full mode from Brogan or King's Letter?

[Galadhorn]

I have added the Arwen's Book inscription and few other in the Inscriptions department of G-i-P. Can you help me to decipher the text in the herbal from the Houses of Healings?

P.S. BTW Saso from our Forum has created a wonderful artistic map of Middle-earth. You can see it in the G-i-P Gallery and you can even purchase the original.

[Adaneth]

Well, I can see only what I can see - most of it is too small (I mean the inscription in the book of herbs.)
The title is: Healing properties of common herbs.
The names of the herbs are: autumn crocus and tanecetum vulgar(is?)
Could please someone with really good eyes help to read the rest?

[Lothenon]

It is written in the Brogan Letter mode. I can't decipher a lot, but this is what I think to understand:

Healing properties of common herbs

Autumn Crocus

A [...] herb for
the [...] of g...t.. are
[...] of the leaves [...]
boiling water should be
....stered daily.

Panacetum Vulgar

[...] [...] [...]
[...] flowers between
july and september
[...] the pads and [...] [...]
wood(?) [...] cooking to
[...]

[Galadhorn]

Hennaid to Lothenon and Adaneth! I have added this transcription to my website. Jaime Ondrusek have written to me today:

Cytat:

I was just able to purchase as a digital download the sheet music for ROTK, which includes lyrics that I don't think we've seen before. As I did with TTT, I'd be happy to try to type them up for you, if you're interested. I would be thrilled to see the linguistic analysis!

Guys, we will have new job! New lyrics! That's this! Here it is:

Minas Tirith

(chorus)
Ored Gwanwen ost in giliath
Dannen Osgiliath

"Mithrandir Song performed by Ben Del Petrucci" (shouldn't that be Del
Maestro?)

(solo)
Sílant calad Dún Tollen Rochon 'Lân
Mennen nored dîn

------------------

The Steward of Gondor

"The Steward of Gondor Song"
(chorus)
Boe le he nio
E si car a thad
yn Ane ah aphen
I ú athelitha

--------------------

Twilight and Shadow

(chorus)
Ngil nin el nel

(soprano solo)
Naun el kree (?) ú a mae
ú el me Síli mae
nin fi li na lo me le ne Menel aduial
dúr i fuin i vah mae

(chorus underneath solo)
Ngil nin el nel
du Gli li mae
Ngil fi el me i
dúr fu Nae mae

"The Grace of Undómiel Song" (Renee Fleming)

An i lu na cu
An i naun lui
A na naun annen
annen ne perónen A

--------------------------------------

The End of All Things

(chorus)
Sin eriol na tha túr
in úgarnen Mi naurath
Oroin Boe hedi i Vín
Han i vangad i moe ben
túr in úgarnen Sin eriol
cili 'war boe min mebi Boe min bango

(solo) Renee Fleming
Sin eriol
úm beleg úgannen
Ú cilith'war Boe min mebi boe min bango
Boe hedi i Vín Sin eriol úm
beleg úgannen
Si na vethed bain i wilith
úria I ardhon ban lacha
Nu da naid bain úe
rin le regi erin le na
thi úeri o nin gwanno

"The Eagles Song" Renee Fleming

(solo)
Orthannen im vi ôl Coll e dú
Or hiriath naur Na rovail mae sui
Man prestant i ardhon Cerithar
aen dim úthenin.

-------------------------------------------

The Return of the King

(Sir James's opening flute solo is apparently called "The Fragrance of
Ithilien")
(Aragorn's coronation, which we all know so well)

"Queen Arwen Song" Renee Fleming

Ti nú vie el
Vanu i El leth al firin e

----------------------------------------

The true mystery is for me Twilight and Shadow.

P.S. Have you seen the topic for writing only in *Sindarin? It's here: http://elendili.histo.pl/viewtopic.php?p=3567#3567

[Adaneth]

Coming back to the book of herbs .
I managed to decode the first part. Unfortunately, the second plant description is beyond my reading skills - I have not Elf-eyes... Well, here it goes:
___________________________________________________________________________
autumn crocus ***
a traditional herb for
the treatment of gout [an?]****
infusion of the leaves in
boiling water should be
administered daily.

tanacetum vulgar[e] *****
????????
___________________________________________________________________________
*** Latin colchicum autumnale, Polish zimowit jesienny
****an? are? [are doesn't seem to fit grammatically]
*****Latin tanacetum vulgare, Polish wrotycz pospolity
___________________________________________________________________________
PS. Well of course in the first version of this post I got the name of the book wrong. Thanks, Gal.

[Galadhorn]

[Galadhorn]

I have another question. What do you think about this reconstruction of the lines from the lyric to The Fields of Pelennor (RotK sountrack) by Chris Adderley

Cytat:

This regards the "Pelennor Fields" piece on the ROTK sountrack CD. After seeing the movie once or twice, I realized that the segment from [1:47] to [2:52] is played while the Nazgul swoop down on Minas Tirith after the artillery duel scene. Therefore, I belive this section to be in Adûnaic. Now, I have absolutely no knowledge of Adûnaic. Therefore, I have tried to implement another method of determining the verses sung here. After extensive comparison with the FOTR lyrics for the "Black Rider" series of themes on your site, I think I have compiled a partial list of what I belive part of the Pellenor Fields time area is. There is one word that I cannot make out however. More talented people than I at this may be able to correct any mistakes of mine. [1:47] Ne^bâbîtham (unknown) [1:58]Ne^nâkham (unknown, seems to be same word as above) [2:10] Ne^tabdam Magânane^ [2:21] Ne^tabdam dâur~ [2:33] Ne^pâm ne^d abârat-aglar [2:37] îdo bârî 'n Kath~ [2:44] Ne^bâbîtham Mag~

I use e^ for e with circumflex. Unfortunately this forum doesn't accept such letters like e and u with ^.

[Lothenon]

For the moment just a few lines that seem rather obvious to me on the first reading

Sílant calad Dún Tollen Rochon 'Lân
The light of the West shone, the White Rider is come

Orthannen im vi ôl Coll e dú
Or hiriath naur Na rovail mae sui
Man prestant i ardhon Cerithar
aen dim úthenin.
I, I rose (/I am risen?) in a dream [of?] Cloak of Night
above rivers of fire with(?) good wings like
[the one?] who changed the world will be
made ... unfirm.

Sheesh, I only see fi, fu, li, lo,... Salo didn't go so far and used Goldogrin pronouns (/ reconstructions based on them) ?!

[Galadhorn]

Cytat:

Sheesh, I only see fi, fu, li, lo,... Salo didn't go so far and used Goldogrin pronouns (/ reconstructions based on them) ?!

Remember that this text comes from sheet music. It means Shore could frament and separate the syllables of the original lyric. But thanks a lot for corrections of my translation. I will add your interpretation at G-i-P.

Update

I have received a letter with the first attempt in deciphering this lyric:

Shadowfax12988 napisał/a:

Possible translations are: Ngil nin el nel [choir: 0.00] My light of three stars Naun el kree [?] ú a mae [solo: 0.16] (??????????) Without of well (?) ú el me Síli mae [solo: 0.32] without stars (?) silver(?) well nin fi li na lo me le ne Menel aduial [solo: 0.48] My(?) (?) is shadow in(?) heaven in the evening dúr i fuin i vah mae [solo: 1.06] Dark the night the (?) well Ngil nin el nel [choir underneath: 0.16] My light of three stars (?) du Gli li mae [choir underneath: 0.32] Night honey(?) well Ngil fi el me i [choir underneath: 0.48] (???) star the(?) dúr fu Nae mae [choir underneath: 1.06] Dark (?) alas well (?) An i lu na cu [solo: 2.36] To the time of the crescent (?) An i naun lui [solo: 2.47] To the (?) quench A na naun annen [solo: 2.56] And of the (?)

[Galadhorn]

I have another attempt in deciphering the Twilight and Shadow lyric. This time by Sarah Reeves:

Cytat:

Twilight and Shadow: featured in Twilight and Shadow Words by Philippa Boyens, translated into Sindarin by David Salo, music by Howard Shore, performed by Renéé Fleming and the choir. Version from the sheet music. Sindarin Ngil nin el nel [choir: 0.00] Star (gil, OS: ñgile) My more(or star?) ? Naun el kree [?] úú a mae [solo: 0.16] ? more(or star?) ? no, no and well úú el me Sííli mae [solo: 0.32] no, no more(star?) ? shine well nin fi li na lo me le ne Menel aduial [solo: 0.48] My ? ? toward ? to thee ? evening sky dúúr i fuin i vah mae [solo: 1.06] The night, the darkness, ? well Ngil nin el nel [choir underneath: 0.16] Star, my more(star?) ? du Gli li mae [choir underneath: 0.32] ? ? ? well Ngil fi el me i [choir underneath: 0.48] Star ? more(star?) ? the dúúr fu Nae mae [choir underneath: 1.06] night-? ? ? alas 32. The Grace: featured in Twilight and Shadow Words by Philippa Boyens, translated into Sindarin by David Salo, music by Howard Shore, performed by Renéé Fleming and the choir. Version from the sheet music. Sindarin An i lu na cu [solo: 2.36] toward the ? with ? An i naun lui [solo: 2.47] toward the ? ? A na naun annen [solo: 2.56] and with ? I gave annen ne peróónen A [solo: 3.11] I gave [it] undivided and

Update

Our friend Pernilla Jansson has sent me the text of the English lyric of Twilight and Shadow from sheet music. Here it is:

Text from the poem The Evening Star
by Philippa Boyens

The Evening Star
I saw a star rise high in the
Evening sky,
It hung like a jewel,
Softly shining.

I saw a star fade in the
Evening sky,
The dark was too deep and so light died,
Softly pining.

For what might have been,
For what never was.
For a life, long lived
For a love half given
________________________

This lyric in its English version is beautiful itself. It would be wonderful to decipher its Sindarin translation.

[Galadhorn]

This is my reconstruction of David Salo's Sindarin translation of Ph. Boyens' lyric which was fragmented by Howard Shore in his sheet music (see few posts above). In green there are these fragments of the Sindarin lyric which can be found fragmented in the sheet music:

The Evening Star
poem by Philippa Boyens, translated into Sindarin by David Salo, reconstructed by Galadhorn

I ngîl cennin erthiel
Ne menel aduial,
Ha glingant be vîr
Síliel moe.

I ngîl cennin firiel
Ne menel aduial,
And-dúr naun i fuin a galad firn
Naegriel* moe.

"The Grace of Undómiel Song" (Renee Fleming)

An i natha
An i naun úlui
A chuil, ann-cuiannen
Am meleth, perónen.


Original English lyric by Ph. Boyens:

I saw a star rise high in the
Evening sky,
It hung like a jewel,
Softly shining.

I saw a star fade in the
Evening sky,
The dark was too deep and so light died,
Softly pining.

For what might have been,
For what never was.
For a life, long lived
For a love half given

* this element -gri- is probably transcribed in the sheet music as -cree-.

_____________________

What do you think about my reconstruction? The evolving reconstruction of this lyric can be also found here and there.

[Valiondur]

I am a french guy. I am a fan of Tolkien too. However it seems to me that you all know sindarin! I am only learning Quenya. I would like more informations about The End Of All Things (that is not easy to find which words are sung! I will try to hear with more attention...)
I will come often to know you more...
Bye
Valiondur
P.S.: By the way can someone translate what i say? : nai haryuvacce mara loa!
Quenya
(For those who had understood: I know that is too late to say that!!!)

[Galadhorn]

Paul Chapman wrote to me about the mysterious lyric from "Amon Hen" in FotR.

Cytat:

Here are the phonetical lyrics of the beginning of "Amon Hen" to the best of my knowledge. 16. Amon Hen 0:00-0:32 I(n) tu la i na ki e sa, fa a ka na hi fae na, tu la hi na hi fae e ha, le ka i(n) tu la In addition, the directors said that the lyrics of the "Departure of Boromir" were taken from Faramir: "I love not the sword for its brightness, nor the arrow for its swiftness; I love only what they defend" and translated into Elvish. As I said, I was unable to hear the lyrics over the instruments (and I know too little about Elvish anyway).

Let us try to decipher what is the right lyric by David Salo. I guess it is written in Quenya. Maybe my own translation of this fragment from the book will be helpful:

Lá melan i macil calina an laicasserya,
lá i pilin an lintasserya,
lá i ohtar an erya alcar.
Melan eressë sa i entë tirir: i Minassë Núatanion

But it can be also Sindarin

Ú-velon vegil faen an ristas dín,
law bilinn an lagoras dín,
law vaethor an aglar dín.
Melon na-erui di i hain veriar: i Vinas Dúnedain.

'I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
nor the arrow for its swiftness,
nor the warrior for his glory.
I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Númenor.'

How do you think, is it possible to decipher the whole lyric by Salo using Chapman's transcript and my translation?

[indyonaro]

There is a solo in the track "Farewell to Lórien" that is played, rather obtusely, during the scene at Gilraen's grave. The solo occurs around 3:33 I think. I believe the solo to be Sindarin and to say something like this:

Lest a lend i lű nar daw lín.
Ring and journey of the time are your gloom

Ú iant! Narn es sîr: A then men ai o nen!
No bridge! Tale of the River: Ah! A short way for those concerned with water!

[Galadhorn]

A very interesting chat with David Salo: http://www.theonering.net...ogs/121104.html

Most exciting fragments:

From Cyllwen - I've been wondering for a long time: What is actually said in the dialog between Aragorn and Haldir (FotR EE, in Lothlórien, when they're whispering to each other)? This is about the only dialog in the movies fans have not been able to translate yet. I'm very curious to know, as well as a lot of other people I'm sure. Could you say something about this?
Thanks, Cyllwen ---
I'm afraid I can't answer that question offhand, because I don't remember the dialogues in their entirety.
However, if you will grant me a minute, I might be able to dig up what I translated
email it
Which may not be exactly the same as what's in the movie
Or we can wait a moment.
Okay, I've found some part of the dialogue
The problem is that it's one in which I actually provided several lines
From which the screenwriters could pick and choose to create a conversation
cool
But the gist is that Aragorn is asking for protection from the Elves of Lórien
Anything seem like an argument? They seemed to argue in the movies.
And explains that he had sent word ahead
And had no choice but to bring the rest of the Fellowship to Lothlórien
Cyllwen says she appreciates the effort
Haldir objects that he has brought evil there
And that he cannot allow them to enter
He is especially unhappy about the presence of the Dwarf.
Evidently Aragorn wins the argument.
Okay, next question?

....

To the first question, I think that "hannon le" is a mistake. I think it should have been "le hannon".
My chapter on syntax reflects that judgment;
And it's something that I've told every Sindarin class that I've taught over the past year.
Aside: Can the creator of a languange make a mistake?
Well, we're talking about a couple of different things here, Demos.
Hannon le is *my* mistake; I hadn't thought deeply enough about Sindarin syntax at the time I let that one get by.
ah, right.
"Hannon le" never appears in Tolkien's own words!

....

The dodgiest pronoun that appears in the movie is "gwarben"
Which is nearly sheer invention on my part
what does it mean?
It means "another"
And the -ben is from the root meaning "person"

Gwar- came from a root VARA in the very archaic version of the Quenya language that Tolkien wrote when he was much younger
It means "other, different"
So I actually didn't *invent* any of the parts of the word,
But the actual combination is quite unorthodox. Happily, I didn't have to do a lot of that.

....

That's a Quenya spell that I wrote.
The neat thing about it is that I got a chance to compose something in Quenya in "Kalevala meter" (trochaic tetrameter).
Was all Sauruman's non-english dialogue Quenyan?
Oh, yes, now that you remind me, there was the discussion between him and Sauron through the Palantír
That was in Neo-Black Speech.
Most of it is Sauron's side, IIRC
But Saruman gets a few words in.
I hope that answers the question -- if not, maybe I can get back to a followup later on. But let's go to the next question first.

[Galadhorn]

I 've received an e-mail from Ellen Brundige:

Cytat:

Thank you once again for your site; I'm one of many folks over the years who use it for a reference. I just noticed a bit of Sindarin in the films that's not posted on gwaith, and considering how odd it is, I can see why! There are many puzzling aspects to the scene where Aragorn confronts Sauron in the palantir -- the strangest being that Aragorn seems to lose the battle of wits, whereas he won it soundly in the books. And there is Arwen's life force being linked to Sauron's, and the Evenstar necklace invented for the films. But besides all that. When Aragorn is gazing into the palantir, Sauron taunts him. It's mostly in Black Speech (one would assume) but just as it flashes to Arwen dying, Sauron says very clearly and distinctly: "silivren penna míriel". Er. Ah. Um. At least he didn't name Varda there, but I'm still a bit startled to hear him quoting High-elven hymns. Nor do the words really go that well with the image of Arwen. I try to enjoy the films, and the Sindarin added a great deal, but...wha? Still, there you are. Sauron speaks Sindarin! ~ Ellen Brundige

[Galadhorn]

An interesting letter from Magpie from Magpie's Nest:

Cytat:

Hi Ryszard, I hope you are well. I read this at your site: Cytat: Wonderful news! Finally we have the complete lyrics from the FotR EE soundtrack. The new complete recordings of the FotR had been released on Dec 13, 2005 and they have published a pdf file with all the lyrics on their official website! Download it... ... and compare it with our imperfect gueses and reconstructions. I am so happy I finally know what is sung in the obscure fragments of the score. Is the analysis necessary? I think so. Maybe we can do it together on our Forum "Elendli"? Welcome to the topic New lyrics from FotR, TTT and RotK. Welcome also to our Friends at A Magpie's Nest! Magpie discusses it too! I have always meant to keep you abreast of new discoveries I've made as I work at my website, but - in the end - I always run out of time. I do, however, want to invite you to use any lyrics information on my site freely for the work at your site. The best way to check what's most recently new is to visit: http://www.geocities.com/...S/WHATS_NEW.htm I have compiled a master list of all the singing in the FOTR: http://www.geocities.com/...rics_master.htm I don't know if you've seen these bits of newish information that might interest you: Bilbo's Song from the ROTK Fan Credits uses an Elvish translation of "I sit beside the fire": http://www.geocities.com/...bilbos_song.htm Singing heard while Gandalf reads Isildur's Account of the Ring uses Seduction lyrics: http://www.geocities.com/...dursAccountRing Merry and Pippin divert the Uruks' attention away from Frodo uses the Ring Verse: http://www.geocities.com/...m#MPdivertUruks And, after trying to talk to multiple people via email about the lyrics, I opened a forum. It's bare bones with just a few members and limited activity. But you might be able to find information there that hasn't made it onto my website yet. http://s15.invisionfree.com/A_Magpies_Nest I'm not suggesting that you or anyone else join that forum - I'm merely giving you free access to use any information on it in your own discussion of the lyrics. You are welcome to join and make comments if you wish, certainly. But I suspect you're busy enough with your own work. I thought of extending this invitation on your forums, but there's just enough Polish to confuse me a little. In the end, an email seemed easier. Take care, Marilynn/Magpie A Magpie's Nest www.geocities.com/magpie930

[Goblim]

There is some dialogue missing that was in RotK EE. When Aragorn speaks with Sauron through the palantir, Sauron speaks in the black speech, but it's not subtitled. Please help find out what is being said there.

[Vindálf]

Dear Goblim, I'm afraid that David Salo (and anybody else) didn't publish it. LotR dialogs you can find here http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_elvish.htm

[Goblim]

I know, that's why I want to find out.
So... how to get in contact with David Salo?